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If you run a program that's deterministic, then by definition, your experiences with that program will be typical of its expected behavior. There's some important nuance there about making sure that the input you provide is the input you mean to provide, hence reproducible builds, containerization, etc.

But still, that's by contrast with programs whose behavior is inherently stochastic. There, it's easy to fool yourself into believing the program "works" when you just got lucky.

Cassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

And in some sense, it should be easy to fool yourself that way! After all, it *did* work, that's a correct observation of the stochastic program's behavior! But it may not be typical, expected, or even anything other than a minor miracle.

Testing the performance of stochastic programs not only means fixing the input and initial state, but being very disciplined about how data about that program is gathered. I used to do that, did it for a decade or so, and that shit is *hard*.

That's part of the problem with "I tried an LLM and it worked, therefore LLMs are useful." It takes a lot more than trying things out to reach that conclusion.

I've used the analogy of a Vegas slot machine before; if all you see are people getting good results out of LLMs, it's easy to believe that's the typical mode of operation.

There's the old saw about "the plural of anecdote is not data," but I think that's bullshit. It's absolutely data. Just maybe not complete, fairly sampled, or completely understood data.

If someone like me points out that the claim that LLMs are useful hasn't been substantiated empirically, pointing out personal anecdotes where they have been useful to you isn't nothing, but it's not enough to establish the extraordinary claim, either.

At this point, if you've read this thread or anything else I've posted for the past approximately two years, you might well accuse me of engaging in high-school debate logic. I'd argue that's a bit unfair, I'm at least at the college debate level here, but still.

I do think debating and talking through this is important, though. AI proponents have proposed and started enacting the project of restructuring society to be convenient for AI producers.

Copyright law and policy, climate action, water usage policy, land usage for data centers, compensation for software engineers involved in and adjacent to AI production, hell, OpenAI has even made *foreign policy* arguments on the basis of the claim that their AI products are immensely useful to society writ large.

Those are all massive changes to society, undertaken on the basis of an extraordinary and unproven claim.

So, like, yeah. Maybe we should be a bit more careful about our empiricism than relying only on personal anecdotes and citation cliques. Maybe we should be clear where the burden of proof lies. Maybe we should be suspicious of claims made by financially motivated actors.

@robinadams @gerrymcgovern @xgranade For years people were convinced they could see the future in tea leaves and sheep knuckles. Heck, plenty still are. What I’m saying is don’t expect LLMs to go away quietly even if their utility is disproven.

@robinadams @xgranade what that just mean is that psychics are real ofc! Brb, gonna go give a psychic all my money