I'll have to take a look at this
Hmm... it seems awkward, but it might just be the novelty. This might work.
@eladhen TBH, my Hebrew is limited enough I couldn't even begin to try their ideas. (I'm still reliant on nikkud). But I'm excited to find something that could work for me as an enby/ay'lonit which doesn't just require me to choose on or the other or constantly switch between them (which would break my autistic brain.)
@eladhen Ooh! They have the nikkud in the paper. Is a happy...
@jessmahler I'm going to have to learn about this as a Hebrew teacher but boy do I not trust anyone to do this properly
@jessmahler but also I 100% can't handle this site's aesthetic so nvm I guess
As an amateur linguist my response is 'what the hell does properly even mean?'
At this point, thanks to @TheRaDR@twitter.com I know of 3 different ways native Hebrew speakers in Israel are trying to make room in Hebrew for their nonbinary genders, plus what these folks are doing. Whatever way ends up becoming accepted and popular 50 years from now, isn't going be chosen based on any criteria of 'properly', it's going to be chosen based on the complicated nature of linguistic spread.
@derpayatz It will be what it will be, and it won't be 'proper'. But whatever it is will work, more or less. Which is more than we have now.
@jessmahler Yeah I'm a descriptivist too. When I say properly, I mean in a way that is going to make sense enough to be adopted by a broad cross section of Jewish communities (including those with a high level of Hebrew literacy, i.e. not Reform)
@jessmahler (and I say that as a Hebrew teacher in a Reform congregation so pls don't get mad)
@derpayatz (No offense taken. I attend a Reconstructionist synagogue myself, but my family is sorta-Orthodox except for those that are completely lapsed. My experience i non-standard enough that I'm not sure why someone would get mad?)
@jessmahler people sometimes get mad at the shit I talk about our Reform siblings
@derpayatz I doubt this particular idea will get much traction, yeah. I think it's worthwhile more for spreading the idea that nonbinary options are needed.
And don't forget that there is are a lot of secular Hebrew speakers in Israel. They will be option for stuff like this.
And I think the Orthodox (in Israel at least) might surprise you. The Talmud supports nonbinary genders, after all, and trans folks get way more support from Orthodox in Israel than in the US.
@jessmahler I grew up in Israel as a secular Hebrew speaker btw so I do remember we exist :)
I haven't lived there in more than a decade, however, so I have no idea what is being developed
I'm not too worried about the Orthodox; I'm more worried about how well those innovations integrate into the greater Hebrew grammar, phonetics, etc
Particularly given that there is a LOT more to Hebrew than the radically simplified version spoken in Israel, and many phonetic variants globally
@derpayatz What I understand is that ... God, I'm blanking on his name... one of the chief rabbi's several decades back, like 80s or 90s, made an official statement about how trans people are the gender they are, and must be accepted as such once they have surgery. You might know more about that than I do.
While there was a LOT of pushback initially, it seems to have taken root. er trans and enby folks who live there, acceptance among religious Jews is way higher in Israel than in the US.
Reading the paper the folks behind this website put out, it seems they put this together in response to 'On April 6th, 2016, the Rabbinical Assembly of Conservative Judaism instructed “all programs affiliated with the Conservative Movement” to fully welcome trans members of the community into all practices and to respect their pronouns and identities.'
Didn't know RAC had put that paper out. Regardless of how the language goes, there's a happy.
@chanele @derpayatz Okay, I had a memory blip. It wasn't a chief rabbi, it was Tzitz Eliezer, which in Israel, ofr medical stuff, apparently is more of a big deal than a chief rabbi.
Interestingly, it wasn't a statement about trans folk, it was a discussion on organ transplants and surgerys that just took it as a given that a trans women (or man) who has bottom surgery is a woman (or man) and that's the end of it.
@chanele Everything else I know is anecdotal, from trans folks in Israel and their friends/family who have said stuff like, ' even Orthodox Jews who don't accept her, still use her female name and pronouns as a sign of respect.'
@jessmahler Yeah, I had the "nice" thing of orthodox rabbis always using my right name and feminine mode of address even while explicitly either rejecting me for conversion or only accepting me under the condition that halachically I am a "man" :)))
@jessmahler Thanks! I was both delighted and a little annoyed to see this. Wrote up some of my thoughts: https://write.as/meemsaf/the-nonbinary-hebrew-project-and-nonbinary-israeli-hebrew
cc @eladhen @derpayatz
@abgd @jessmahler @eladhen I have more, but it's important to note that sacred Hebrew and Israeli Hebrew are essentially different languages with VERY different uses, and (as someone who grew up in Israel) I do feel that diasporic communities should be able to pull on the language without giving special consideration to Israeli Hebrew and its speakers
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